Dokeos online development meeting July 5, 2003, 3pm

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Archive first Dokeos online development meeting
July 5, 2004, 3pm

stefaan_hogent : test
thomas : hello stefan
thomas : hello everybody
stefaan_vanbillemont : thomas?
dfg : yes.
thomas : yes
roan_embrechts : hi folks
thomas : hi roan
thomas : 8 minutes left....
thomas : ta ta taaaa
roan_embrechts : didn't we start at 3 PM ?
stefaan_vanbillemont : indeed
stefaan_vanbillemont : I received a mail with the hour of 3 PM
thomas : gosh. Good news then, I ll have a sandwich. See you later.
roan_embrechts : stefaan: have you tested the import tool yet
frederik questier : Test
stefaan_vanbillemont : roan, I just arrived here .. haven't got the time yet to test
stefaan_vanbillemont : and it isn't really my project .. but more the one from michel
stefaan_vanbillemont : But friday I figured out that Blackboard 6.1 uses IMS 1.1.2
stefaan_vanbillemont : so we have to modify your tool a little bit
roan_embrechts : ok, no problem. The code is pretty easy to extend
stefaan_vanbillemont : and we haven't decided yet wich course to follow
stefaan_vanbillemont : 1) using the TOC .. 2) using the resources
stefaan_vanbillemont : probably a mix of the two ..
roan_embrechts : if the idea of a document service layer makes it, you could even just create a "documents tool copy" for every imported BB tool
roan_embrechts : the idea being: instead of a mega-uber docuent tool that does everything, make it decentralised
roan_embrechts : and refactor so every tool can easily do these things: uploading, organising, creating folders ad subfolders, adding items
roan_embrechts : then every tool can use this code to provide wanted functionality
roan_embrechts : this is simply a more flexible software design. and it happens to be very useful for importing from other elearning apps as well
roan_embrechts : so now you have three options, even worse :-)
stefaan_vanbillemont : I know you looked into Blackboard also .. there you can add "content" everywhere in you course
stefaan_vanbillemont : maybe that is the direction dokeos should follow too?
roan_embrechts : I don't know. Well, the resource linker does that a bit. But you can make very bad courses like that :)
stefaan_vanbillemont : maybe
roan_embrechts : But the idea of not thinking in files / hyperlinks but more general in items with metadata is very appealing
stefaan_vanbillemont : I noticed that you can add hyperlinks in the document tool in the new claroline release
roan_embrechts : indeed. I think that's a good idea, because it makes abstraction of storage place
roan_embrechts : it matters only that these are documents for the users of the course, doesn't matter where they are stored
stefaan_vanbillemont : less then 10 minutes to go!
rene_haentjens : hi everybody...
patrick_cool : hi everyone
patrick_cool : icto is present
vanhoecke_toon : at your service ...
stefaan_vanbillemont : hello patrick and rene
stefaan_vanbillemont : hello toon
patrick_cool : it looks like all the regulars are here :-)
olivier cauberghe : hello
vanhoecke_toon : good afternoon to all europeans, good ... to the rest
stefaan_vanbillemont : seems like the moderator is still at lunch
roan_embrechts : hello everyone
patrick_cool : ...
roan_embrechts : ah, rene, you're virtually here this time :)
jan_bols : i'm here too (or there)
patrick_cool : pom pom pom
patrick_cool : (waiting for the discussion to start)
roan_embrechts : --- 5 minutes BREAK FOR COMMERCIALS
patrick_cool : START
denes_nagy : hello you there far away !
patrick_cool : Hi denes
roan_embrechts : ah, our international developer
patrick_cool : did you get my mail?
denes_nagy : Patrick, maybe you are angry with me...?
patrick_cool : no, not at all...
denes_nagy : i got your mail and i am very surprised, as I always did checkout before committing and what i did, i committed at once
patrick_cool : but it is annoying that bugs that are solved resurface again....
patrick_cool : I hope I explained it well and I hope you understand the problem?
patrick_cool : for others:
denes_nagy : but i do not know what bugs you are talking about...but maybe this should be a private talk
patrick_cool : breadcrumbs do not work as they should in the resource linker because the source_id is set each time you want to add a new resource
roan_embrechts : are these bugs caused by code duplication?
patrick_cool : ok, no problem Denes....
denes_nagy : no
vanhoecke_toon : let's start the discussion for 1.6, is there a moderator ??
denes_nagy : Patrick, can you repair them by tomorrow or what should we do ?
patrick_cool : Denes, maybe we can use a course on the dokeos channel to talk about this discussion?
denes_nagy : ok, let's start the 1.6
roan_embrechts : yes, best use a different channel for the bugs. start 1.6 OK (thomas is getting a sandwich)
stefaan_vanbillemont : i'm ready
olivier cauberghe : me too
roan_embrechts : First of all, a question:
roan_embrechts : do you all like the current way of bug reporting, or do you think a bug tracker is better?
roan_embrechts : E.g. <a href="http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=98685&atid=621714" target="_blank">http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=98685&atid=621714</a>
patrick_cool : fine as it is as long as you post an image if relevant
roan_embrechts : the problem is we forget old bugs
patrick_cool : post them in the correct forum and if the bugs are fixed put a [fixed] in front of the topic message
denes_nagy : there are no bugs on <a href="http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=98685&atid=621714" target="_blank">http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=98685&atid=621714</a>
roan_embrechts : It's the bug tracker given to us by SourceForge, we don't use it yet.
thomas_depraetere : hello folks
patrick_cool : hi
roan_embrechts : I did add one example bug
stefaan_vanbillemont : hello
roan_embrechts : hello back again
thomas_depraetere : hello roan. Toon is right. Who wants to be the moderator?
roan_embrechts : ADMINS: will here be a chat log?
vanhoecke_toon : hello thomas
roan_embrechts : thomas, you can be moderator?
thomas_depraetere : hello toon. Yes there is a log.
thomas_depraetere : ok I am moderator. What does this mean in a chat?
roan_embrechts : start a topic, keep people on it
thomas_depraetere : OK. My first topic is 1.5.4. IS everybody happy with it and with releasing it tomorrow?
stefaan_vanbillemont : maybe we can suggest some topics to handle?
denes_nagy : i suppose this is the first chat meeting ?
thomas_depraetere : yes the first chat meeting
roan_embrechts : well, we had a voice + chat meeting months ago, but decided to try just chat
roan_embrechts : because then everybody is more equal + no voice delay
roan_embrechts : but one of the international devs isn't here, Eric Remy, so that's for another chat meting
thomas_depraetere : I like to talk about something material. This is why I have linked to roadmap. Can everybody see roadmap during discussion?
patrick_cool : if the new bugs are solved: ok; release
stefaan_vanbillemont : no, can't see it
stefaan_vanbillemont : where to look?
thomas_depraetere : the roadmap is on top of screen first frame
vanhoecke_toon : I see the roadmap: <a href="http://www.dokeos.com/roadmap.php" target="_blank">http://www.dokeos.com/roadmap.php</a>
thomas_depraetere : click on photo
stefaan_vanbillemont : ok
denes_nagy : as for the new bugs, Patrick, come to chat of code1 course on campus (denes100) to discuss them
thomas_depraetere : on 1.5.4 we have a great release. But no good method for debugging, I think
patrick_cool : ok, denes.... I'll be there in a minute
roan_embrechts : No I agree. Our bugfixing isn't good enough
roan_embrechts : but it's not that bad, because we can concentrate more no bugs for next release
thomas_depraetere : my problem is I believe in users and users don't like sophisticated debugging systems
olivier cauberghe : i think patrick's idea is a good one
thomas_depraetere : what idea?
thomas_depraetere : 15h15
patrick_cool : adding [fixed] to the topic if the bug is fixed
roan_embrechts : we already do put FIXED in front, it's good, but still: too man,y poages, too lmany old bugs
patrick_cool : lots of boards use that system
thomas_depraetere : what I like in p. 's idea is that we keep the forum, for me the best tool to debug
roan_embrechts : I haven't seen any bug opensource projects use just a forum
roan_embrechts : BIG I meant
thomas_depraetere : is everybody alright with this P's idea?
olivier cauberghe : yes, the forum is the place where everbody goes.
olivier cauberghe : patrick's idea has my vote
thomas_depraetere : less communication channels = better communication
stefaan_vanbillemont : yes, but what with the follow-up of bugs?
denes_nagy : fine for me
patrick_cool : P's (peace, pis, ...) has my vote also ;-)
thomas_depraetere : forum is a flexible tool. I am sure can be used as a follow up tool
roan_embrechts : forum works OK, but still... there's a reason people use bugtracking software
thomas_depraetere : Then we release tomorrow. I will add more help files if you don't mind because I am cofronted with everlasting lost users
stefaan_vanbillemont : thomas, that is a good idea
patrick_cool : if we use bugtracking software it is another system to check ... and nobody has enough time
stefaan_vanbillemont : not all dokeos users are IT-experts
thomas_depraetere : ok roan, but here we are making a web app and this means lots of users and beginners
vanhoecke_toon : I agree with thomas, less channels = better communication, so no bugtracking
olivier cauberghe : I agree stefaan
roan_embrechts : I know
thomas_depraetere : So if everyb is alright, let's talk about 1.6. First the deadline : December?
rene_haentjens : OK for me (metadata)
patrick_cool : I would not put a hard deadline because we never succeedded in keeping the dealine
roan_embrechts : fine for me
vanhoecke_toon : OK for us
stefaan_vanbillemont : yes, the main goal show be: "keep what we have, and optimize it"
augier : I can't left roan alone, I think that forum was good when we were a small project, but it will be soon too much complex to track bugs only with a forum
roan_embrechts : no, a deadline is something you aspire to, you never reach it
roan_embrechts : so having a date is good
thomas_depraetere : Yes a horizon...
roan_embrechts : it's psychological: having a dae when your code should be bugfree
denes_nagy : deadline is needed, December is fine (better than before January exams 8) )
thomas_depraetere : Mar Augier : ok but who will fill the debugging tool?
roan_embrechts : I will experiment with the debug tool myself
thomas_depraetere : Ok. I suggest everybody explains what he sees in the next release : I would like virtual meeting and better interoperability : hotpotatoes, SAP, QuestionMarks....
roan_embrechts : debug tool for myself: as a learning experience, see if it's better
augier : the same people who are filling the forum should fill the debugging tool
vanhoecke_toon : OK Roan, go ahead but take care that our workload doesn't explode
stefaan_vanbillemont : the main goal show be: "keep what we have, and optimize it"
roan_embrechts : about the time issue: it's only imagination that there is too few time
roan_embrechts : for Dokeos the software, there's nothing deadly urgent
stefaan_vanbillemont : here at Hogeschool Gent we are still confronted with interface problems
thomas_depraetere : I will type a page with your proposals and then upload it in 30 minutes onto the top frame here
roan_embrechts : proposals: debugging, refactoring, polishing
denes_nagy : in the future, deinitely, we will need a better meeting room (not only for us)
patrick_cool : mail from Olivier Brouckaert????
patrick_cool : unset($_SESSION['xxx']) doesn't work....
augier : what about some peer2peer??
patrick_cool : this is exactly the good method
olivier cauberghe : we are writing a question tool that is IMS QTI compatible, so we will be able to use the questions from Question Martk Perception
roan_embrechts : peer2peer: would be interesting, but it requires another server software component
olivier cauberghe : indeed, unset should be used with $_SESSION
thomas_depraetere : <a href="http://www.dokeos.com/online/proposals.html" target="_blank">http://www.dokeos.com/online/proposals.html</a>
vanhoecke_toon : stefaan, what kind of interface problems?
stefaan_vanbillemont : some tools behave in different ways
thomas_depraetere : I agree with Denes : meeting room, community tools, know who is online etc.
olivier cauberghe : $_SESSION unsetting: <a href="http://be.php.net/manual/en/function.unset.php" target="_blank">http://be.php.net/manual/en/function.unset.php</a>
patrick_cool : those are indeed good proposals I think
roan_embrechts : (delay session discussion to another time please)
patrick_cool : it IS a developpers chat ... !!
olivier cauberghe : this is a developpers meeting.... so $_SESSION is ok
vanhoecke_toon : so stefaan, can you do a thorough consistency check?
thomas_depraetere : refresh central frame to have quicker chat refresh
roan_embrechts : stefaan: that's right, at last dev meeting we decided to write a look and feel guidelines for Dokeos
thomas_depraetere : Marc Augier : what peer2peer do you think of?
stefaan_vanbillemont : ok, that is a start
stefaan_vanbillemont : I'm willing to work on that
roan_embrechts : good
olivier cauberghe : good for us stefaan
thomas_depraetere : Yes, what about documentation : all our docs are out of date.
augier : I used groove some years ago, and I liked the idea of being able to share files with my teammates
olivier cauberghe : isn't isabelle working on the documentation ?
roan_embrechts : yes, there's a short manual ready
augier : then the idea is as well to use some dokeos functions offline
thomas_depraetere : yes olivier but only dutch one and teacher + STUDENT
patrick_cool : writing documentation is very dull job
roan_embrechts : it does need perhaps translation updates
thomas_depraetere : not that dull. I like creating clear help for instance
roan_embrechts : plus the newest tools aren't in it, which is logical
patrick_cool : maybe a better alternative: extend the help function in dokeos?
roan_embrechts : the people who like writing docs should do it then
thomas_depraetere : i agree patrick
roan_embrechts : and I agree too
stefaan_vanbillemont : for starting it can be a good idea to make a scheme from all developpers .. who is working on what topic?
olivier cauberghe : me too
thomas_depraetere : yes. The who is doing what can be done reading the roadmap <a href="http://www.dokeos.com/roadmap.php" target="_blank">http://www.dokeos.com/roadmap.php</a>
thomas_depraetere : ... if we still agree on the old roamdap
roan_embrechts : it needs an update
vanhoecke_toon : let's take point after point
roan_embrechts : and a bit more attention to improvement instead of new tools
rene_haentjens : the 1.6 roadmap tells "what" but seldom "who"
olivier cauberghe : correct, more improvement roan
thomas_depraetere : i am editing roadmap live, refresh it now and then
stefaan_vanbillemont : indeed roan
thomas_depraetere : inded not too many new tools
stefaan_vanbillemont : here at Hogeschool Gent we work with Blackboard 6.1
roan_embrechts : the good thing is that I see more and more API functions in the CVS
patrick_cool : we are already doing improvements.... cfr the new Agenda Tool, rework of the Announcement tool
stefaan_vanbillemont : and the collaboration tools aren't used ...
roan_embrechts : well, some people use them
stefaan_vanbillemont : but only a small percentage
frederik questier : Augier: How would you use P2P? With students?
jan_bols : proposal1: work out the API asap and refactor all tools so that they use the API functions
roan_embrechts : yes jan, that would be best
augier : P2P: with studnts
jan_bols : proposal2: get a unified table scheme to handle file uploads so that is can be used different tools
patrick_cool : jan_bols
augier : P2P: you can ask them to build docs on some area, then share them
thomas_depraetere : and what about our users-dialogue protocol. I always believed in creating a tool 'on the phone' with users. We should create opportunities to let THEM tell us what to do
patrick_cool : jan_bols, these have been discussed in the latest document subgroup meeting and are approved...
roan_embrechts : janb: agree too, I lwould like that very much
patrick_cool : there is a lot of talking going on, but nobody is taking the steps to do it
thomas_depraetere : for instance I was this morning at FOREM in Cahrlerio and they need that the student gets a project tool outside courses
roan_embrechts : I will mainly refactor coming months
jan_bols : proposal3: get a system that handles configuration parameters for sysadmins, students and teachers in a unified way instead of hiding config parameters inside scripts
augier : P2P :the idea is the same as the document area in dokeos, but with more input from stuents
thomas_depraetere : Denes will add hotpotatoes compatibility
thomas_depraetere : and there is a survey tool coming from Denmark
frederik questier : Augier: I wouldn't call that that P2P, but something like Sharing Area, as it is P2Web2P?
roan_embrechts : janbols: how do you propose to store settings? Database or text or xml files?
jan_bols : roan, I don't care
denes_nagy : yes, my jobs now : HotPotatoes, QuestionMark, maybe Dokeos homepage, bit later : meeting tool
patrick_cool : do you mean a poll tool ?
thomas_depraetere : concerning p2p I see documents versioning features and virtual meeting (URL exchange for instance)
frederik questier : A Wiki is useful for student group works.
thomas_depraetere : more than a poll : a list f questions that you can analyse afeterwards
roan_embrechts : janbols: OK, you're right. Doesn't matter as much as that it's there
thomas_depraetere : yes wiki is also a possibility
patrick_cool : storing config => database
stefaan_vanbillemont : I agree with patrick
patrick_cool : ok, it is an 'enquete' then
augier : P2P: I agree! maybe the thing I am really looking after is an "offline" document area
thomas_depraetere : yes polising for me means improving config, home page config, admin, registration etc. too
olivier cauberghe : database for storing config.
thomas_depraetere : yes enquete exactly
patrick_cool : this is a different use of a quiz ;-)
thomas_depraetere : indeed patrick but then you have features to export data and treat them
olivier cauberghe : indeed, our testtool could also be used as a survey tool
patrick_cool : which the quiz tool should have also ....
thomas_depraetere : why do all people complain that our quiz tool is too complex?
roan_embrechts : because the interface sucks
patrick_cool : ... and doesn't have enough possibilities
thomas_depraetere : so why not just connect with existing and sophisticated ones?
patrick_cool : Olivier C is working on a complete new test tool. I do not know if it will be possible to connect this to dokeos
thomas_depraetere : why not?
jan_bols : good point thomas
roan_embrechts : why not have a simple znd easy to use tool built in, and others connectable as plugins?
denes_nagy : maybe i did not got it : you want a quiz for asking people's opinion ? about what ?
olivier cauberghe : our new test tool WILL be connactable with dokeos
roan_embrechts : ah, I thought so
thomas_depraetere : good news
roan_embrechts : would be strange to make your own products incompatible
patrick_cool : denes: we started about a survey tool( for asking about people's opinion) but now we are talking about the quiz tool itself
thomas_depraetere : we can improve connection quiz/path like : you cannot go to step 2 if you did not get more than 60
denes_nagy : can I ask not to rewrite the quiz tool right now, as the HotPotatoes and QuestionMark quiz import project is already started
thomas_depraetere : we definitely need to improve the document creation tool (I believe in that one) by uploading images to it instead of cut/paste image URL
roan_embrechts : Thomas: OK. But only after there is commond code for uploading
patrick_cool : document upload should indeed be an API function
olivier cauberghe : we've been working on the new quiz tool since a couple of months.
thomas_depraetere : nothing against apis
patrick_cool : because it can be used in the learning path builder, resource linker to
denes_nagy : yes, i'd also need a file showing/uploading function (parameters like size, name, available buttons,...)
roan_embrechts : OK. Denes, why don't you / we built it?
patrick_cool : indeed... so that would be a complete redesign of the documents tool
olivier cauberghe : denes, the testtool is IMS QTI compliant so questions from questionmark can be imported
denes_nagy : Olivier C : is that new quiz a substitution of the existing ones ? when will it finish ?
thomas_depraetere : I have no problem to remove the existing one
roan_embrechts : that's what I meant: I think Dokeos should have a simple tool standard, and optional more complex ones with more features
olivier cauberghe : the connectivity of out test tool should be a plug in
olivier cauberghe : we plan to start a pilot around october
roan_embrechts : all tools are adding features, but we should make sure Dokeos doesn't lose it's appeal as userfriendly platform
patrick_cool : prepare to get blown away !!!
thomas_depraetere : what about disabilities compliance : accessibility and all that stuff? boring but trendy
denes_nagy : Roan : we agreed last time, that perhaps i should not modify the documents tool, as it concerns all of you, and to work here (far) is easier in new tools
roan_embrechts : OK. But you can always help designing APIs: what you need and think
jan_bols : proposal4: get a good help system that takes care of providing the user the right help depending of the permissions, and config parameters that are set.
roan_embrechts : thomas: accessibility: yes. I'll add some of these guidlines to the book
sebastien_dornano : accessibility : boring (true) but nt only trendy : all public french organisation should be accessible by 2005
denes_nagy : Roan : ok, i will write to the forum what I think and need
thomas_depraetere : I say this because public administration is forced to take accessibility into account and ATutor makes big noise here
thomas_depraetere : sorry sebastien I hadn't read
patrick_cool : is ATutor so accessible???
thomas_depraetere : is your work progressing sebastien?
patrick_cool : I do not think so...
roan_embrechts : not being accessible for all users is discrimination, so we should keep it in mind
thomas_depraetere : you are playing xwoth words patrick;;.
sebastien_dornano : yes and no I think we can do better
roan_embrechts : ofcourse we can do better!
sebastien_dornano : I am veru slow (60% completed) of the first step html2xhtml
patrick_cool : I don't understand what you mean thomas....
patrick_cool : what do you mean with ATutor make big noise....????
thomas_depraetere : I mean accessibility for blind people YES but easy to use NOT. 2 meanings of accessibility
thomas_depraetere : big noise I mean everybody knows they are the first platform to take care of accessibility for disabled people + norms of many types
patrick_cool : I don't think ATutor is very accessible for blind people... do you think differently?
roan_embrechts : how can you tell?
thomas_depraetere : well. full blind no but WAI compliant for badly seeing people
patrick_cool : denes, are you still in the other chat
denes_nagy : Patrick : sorry, i go back, wait
patrick_cool : maybe ATutor has some hidden features that I haven't found yet
roan_embrechts : you have to be blind to see them
vanhoecke_toon : patrick, olivier and I need to take a short break, we will be back in a few minutes !
roan_embrechts : sorry, couldn't resist
patrick_cool : but my first impression (and second, and third) is that ATutor is even worse than Dokeos from a GUI point of view
thomas_depraetere : Ali PAkdel is working on a demo content for dokeos : english for beginners. A nice interactive and multimedia course. In strasrbourg
patrick_cool : BRB
frederik questier : ROTFL
thomas_depraetere : what do you mean 'worse'??? Do you think we are bad?
thomas_depraetere : what is BRB ROTFL?
jan_bols : proposal5: get a authentication model based on roles and permissions assigned to those roles
roan_embrechts : Accesibility: see <a href="http://www.dokeos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1942" target="_blank">http://www.dokeos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1942</a>
stefaan_vanbillemont : jan_bols, I fully agree with that
frederik questier : Rolling on the floor laughing
thomas_depraetere : I resist to associating social roles with system permission. I would appreciate to dissociate those 2 concepts because they vary from one oranisation to the other
roan_embrechts : BRB = be right back
stefaan_vanbillemont : seems that only jan_bols is coming here with new idea's
rene_haentjens : for what it's worth: I don't like the UI of ATutor very much: when ATutor has put everything on the screen that it wants to put there (navigation, headers, footers, ...) there is not much window space left for what the teacher wanted to put there
thomas_depraetere : Ali has content, Denes has HotPot integration and virtual meeting
roan_embrechts : thomas: I agree, but we can define all rights and then perhaps set up right packages that have certain role names, to be chosen by platform admin
thomas_depraetere : what about NEWS on home page?
roan_embrechts : about our UI: I like the Dokeos UI
thomas_depraetere : I mean portal wide news
roan_embrechts : that's why I'm afraid of too many new features
jan_bols : Thomas, the thing you say about dissociating roles and permissions is exactly what i would propose.
eremy : Thomas- isn't that what a portal is for?
eremy : I like the focus of Dokeos on education only
roan_embrechts : the best tools can be used in different ways
eremy : Compare Blackboard- I'm not sure they even know what they are anymore
thomas_depraetere : ok Jan then
roan_embrechts : e.g. editing the homepage: everyone can put there what they want: selling cinema tickets for all I care
roan_embrechts : but I agree we need FOCUS
sebastien_dornano : news : why not a RSS function in the link tool and a bachend.php file to inform of new course on a campus
denes_nagy : mews on the homepage - then what are the announcements used for ?
marc_augier : on <a href="http://webintec.ceram.fr/" target="_blank">http://webintec.ceram.fr</a> we have NEWS on home page
thomas_depraetere : Indeed doing ONE thing or more than one is a comple x question. Bboard is a good example : they do one thing but they do it good..On the other hand...
thomas_depraetere : ... my administration clients are looking for an integrated system to deal with registration, training, competencies management etc.
marc_augier : They come from the announcement of a "Webintec" course
eremy : How many integrate Dokeos with an existing portal?
roan_embrechts : how do you define integrating
eremy : We do that, so a lot of external stuff is just duplication of what uPortal already provides
eremy : Doekos is a tab in the my.rmwc.edu
roan_embrechts : same look, same navigation bar ?
eremy : I'm working on look :^)
thomas_depraetere : I have no problem with duplication. The problem is to offer an integrated package with what eople look for
roan_embrechts : Integration Example: Most universities want a single login, so that feature could be provided
thomas_depraetere : with LDAP you mean Roan?
roan_embrechts : There's other opensource products for competency management I think
roan_embrechts : LDAP: no. Users loi in on the campus website, go to Dokeos and are in there without having to log in again
eremy : We do single login via a hack- see <a href="http://www.dokeos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2273" target="_blank">http://www.dokeos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2273</a>
thomas_depraetere : other products do not mean there is nothing to do in terms of development OR integration
roan_embrechts : so it's one step further: not just same login and password, also only typing password once for many apps
roan_embrechts : thomas: yes, you're right
eremy : We'll be using LDAP this year for folks who don't care about access through the portal
roan_embrechts : UGent + Hogent uses LDAP too, VUB uses CURL
marc_augier : CERAM uses LDAP
eremy : While we're being quiet, I have a minor feature request
roan_embrechts : let's hear it
thomas_depraetere : yessss..... we are all lisssstening
eremy : Since we do do single login through the portal, the profs never get to see the entire list of available courses
eremy : Could we add a "browse existing courses" link to the individual home page?
thomas_depraetere : this is really minor. I see no problem there
eremy : Right now I'm telling them to log out to view the list, and this is clunky
roan_embrechts : Actually they already can in the course overview if they select register to new courses
roan_embrechts : but I agree with adding this
roan_embrechts : it adds flexibility on the homepage
eremy : BTW: it looks like y'all started early: will the chat be archived somewhere?
roan_embrechts : I hope to refactor the index.php because right now it's just 1000+ lines without functions
roan_embrechts : eremy, there will be a log.
roan_embrechts : pcool will add something to the homepage that can be used to link to FAQS. Don't see why you couldn't use it to show / link to news
roan_embrechts : Jan bols: earlier discussion:
roan_embrechts : you could first write an API and then refactor everything at once
roan_embrechts : or incrementally add to the API and refactor as you go
thomas_depraetere : Let me make another proposal : European Public Administration Institute in Maastricht would like to make a search in their dokeos portal on home page through all courses (forums + documents titles and description). I think we are poorr on search forms
roan_embrechts : both have advantages
jan_bols : roan, was that a statement, question or proposal?
rene_haentjens : thomas (search): have you tried just adding PhpDig on the side?
roan_embrechts : a question: what do you think is best?
eremy : Thomas: good idea. COuld you leverage PHPdig or something similar
thomas_depraetere : will phpdig search for files or mysql bases?
roan_embrechts : I agree on phpdig, rene has demonstrated it, works well as a first search tool
rene_haentjens : (search) PhpDig walks through a website like a normal user
eremy : Files: you can add catdoc to include Word documents, which would be essential
roan_embrechts : yes, reading word and pdf like google does
thomas_depraetere : what is catdog? is it open source?
eremy : catdoc- Word to text dump tool. It's open source
eremy : There are similar for PDF and Excel
jan_bols : roan, i'm not sure what the best approach is. i'm not a SW-designer
jan_bols : i do think it' s vital that you start with a strong api base.
thomas_depraetere : but phpdig cannot be used as a global search engine in a software where so much is stored in mysql databases
roan_embrechts : well, I have learned things in my univ training, but they differ from the real world
roan_embrechts : you learn design up front, then implement, then you get a job and a tight deadline and start making mistakes
eremy : No, but it's half the solution- it will do Documents well
rene_haentjens : (search) Dokeos makes the mysql database stuff visible in the Dokeos windows, which are HTML and indexable by PhpDig
jan_bols : a strong api-base means that you have to spend a lot of time thinking about what you really want (what functionality) and in what form (functions, classes, ...)
jan_bols : the api should be the base for the entire system, so it's not someting to take lightly
roan_embrechts : well, the API is improving; since the whole team now agrees on the fact that it's a good idea
roan_embrechts : and we have practical ideas like for the document functions: uploading, etc
roan_embrechts : because I feel at this point we best use practical demands to drive API building
jan_bols : roan, i agree with you because i think it's the only way to advance know
jan_bols : i also disagree with you, because i think we need to create a solution that is structural (we should have gotten that in the beginning already)
roan_embrechts : I know. It would've been better.
thomas_depraetere : what about making the agenda collaborative : I add itmes for me and attachments to it
thomas_depraetere : ... and I associate people to my events
jan_bols : but this is not easy to make structural changes without a clear hierarchy in the developing team.
thomas_depraetere : read items not itmes
roan_embrechts : perhaps not, we do lack a lead developer
roan_embrechts : but we can still do good things
roan_embrechts : the will to change is there
denes_nagy : read the 'bazaar and the cathedral' - good book
eremy : Thomas: Would groups be a place to integrate something like that?
roan_embrechts : I read it often and think it's fantastic
eremy : Or are you looking for a more OUtlook-like calender function
roan_embrechts : a great babbling bazaar of different ideas and approaches :)
thomas_depraetere : more outlook
roan_embrechts : communication is very important in a software project
roan_embrechts : more so than the individual skill of the programmers, which is usually good enough
thomas_depraetere : how can we communicate better?
denes_nagy : next time let's use the better chat with pictures
thomas_depraetere : hat chat?
thomas_depraetere : what chat?
roan_embrechts : Dokeos chat tool?
denes_nagy : the Dokeos chat
thomas_depraetere : yes good. But then you need to register to a course
denes_nagy : not a big problem
thomas_depraetere : olivier has shown the pictures . Good. But what I owould like is that it tells who is online not only who speaks
roan_embrechts : Yes, indeed
thomas_depraetere : register to a course + add your picture... by the way...
denes_nagy : if you register to a course, the system sees that you are online - so, it is also solvable
jan_bols : what about msn messenger ? (oeps, sorry)
thomas_depraetere : a client of mine pointed out that the picture is a man. Some women seem to don't like that they are represented by default by a man
thomas_depraetere : feel sorry Jan
roan_embrechts : No that's right
roan_embrechts : a gender neutral picture is possible
thomas_depraetere : i never use chat. What is better in MSN?
roan_embrechts : Go away MSN. Use Yabber, it's free software
denis_parra : somebody has tried skype?
jan_bols : thomas, msn actually quite good for collaborative things.
denes_nagy : as for the man/woman picture, I can ask : why is the figure black ? 8)
roan_embrechts : lol
thomas_depraetere : well, folks, I think we are not really still talking about the release. As there is still a lot to do for the next release, I wil leave you here .
roan_embrechts : We need to resolve some issues before features
denes_nagy : i will also switch to 'listener mode' as I have to fix the last bug, we've discussed just now with Patrick
roan_embrechts : development strategies, like API, development methodology
denis_parra : skype t's more oriented to voice and works meuch better than msn
jan_bols : thomas, i see that <a href="http://www.dokeos.com/online/proposals.html" target="_blank">http://www.dokeos.com/online/proposals.html</a> doesn't contain the following proposals:
jan_bols : proposal1: work out the API and refactor all tools to use that api.
jan_bols : proposal2: get a unified table scheme to handle file uploads so that is can be used different tools
jan_bols : proposal3: get a system that handles configuration parameters for sysadmins, students and teachers in a unified way instead of hiding config parameters inside scripts
jan_bols : proposal4: get a good help system that takes care of providing the user the correct information depending on the permissions and config parameters that are set.
jan_bols : proposal5: get a authentication model based on roles and permissions assigned to those roles
jan_bols : ;)
thomas_depraetere : yes denes and you should also fix the path bug : Notice: Undefined variable: action in c:program fileseasyphpwww154s5dokeosdokeosclarolinelearnpathlearnpath.php on line 23
roan_embrechts : janbols: agreed 1, 2, 3, 4
stefaan_vanbillemont : proposal 5 is very important because now roles and permissions aren't good enough
roan_embrechts : 5 needs more discussion
roan_embrechts : the system should be flexibie enough
stefaan_vanbillemont : look at blackboard where you have a set of user types
roan_embrechts : E.g. this student is also capable of managing forums
stefaan_vanbillemont : and each type has it's own rights, on portal level and course level
stefaan_vanbillemont : indeed roan
roan_embrechts : Assistent 1 may restore course backups, assistent 2 not
roan_embrechts : so that's why we need to get it straight before implementing
roan_embrechts : because a change like this is more or less forever, so it had better be good
stefaan_vanbillemont : I agree with that
stefaan_vanbillemont : that's why is should be better to optimize what we have before adding more features
patrick_cool : we are back
stefaan_vanbillemont : I don't understand the need of all those new tools will there are still some basic issues to handle
olivier cauberghe : i prefer msn too
patrick_cool : msn is no problem for me
stefaan_vanbillemont : msn is fine for me
roan_embrechts : well, it's not acceptable to me
patrick_cool : all the chat is going through here if I understand correctly
roan_embrechts : if you use open source...
olivier cauberghe : it works perfect...
patrick_cool : becasue there is some discussion about using a course to chat?
roan_embrechts : All I'm saying is do not force people to collaborate on opensource using MS products
stefaan_vanbillemont : why not? if it is a product that works ..
olivier cauberghe : exactly
roan_embrechts : because it(s a contradictio: MS hates opensource because it threatens them
roan_embrechts : and they take action against it
olivier cauberghe : maybe you just hate MS ?
stefaan_vanbillemont : opensource doesn't mean that you have to stick to one genre of software
jan_bols : sorry to start this msn discussion. If open source can provide the same functionality, ofcourse this would be preferable
roan_embrechts : the lobby againts opensource, so they are bad for open source, so why use their products?
roan_embrechts : they lobby, I meant
patrick_cool : to be extreme in your thoughts and position against microsoft...
roan_embrechts : ?
jan_bols : it's just that i don't know jabber or any other chattool, but i'm willing to learn.
patrick_cool : use the best tool... opensource or not
roan_embrechts : what's extreme about thinking about microsofts actions?
stefaan_vanbillemont : maybe it's better to leave this discussion and return to dokeos?
roan_embrechts : they have a negative impact, better be aware of it
olivier cauberghe : msn is the best tool for that
roan_embrechts : olivier have you aver used yabber?
patrick_cool : if you are satisfied with one tool, why switch
stefaan_vanbillemont : I mean, there is a lot of work and all we do is discuss on a communication tool
roan_embrechts : yes stefaan you're right
patrick_cool : indeed the chat is not really a succes due to...
olivier cauberghe : roan, have you ever tried msn ?
patrick_cool : lack of agenda, interest, ...
stefaan_vanbillemont : I miss an agenda yes
roan_embrechts : olivier: no, but I havent used yabber either :)
olivier cauberghe : :-)
stefaan_vanbillemont : instead of making a list of new things to implement in dokeos .. maybe it should be better to discuss the underlaying structure of dokeos?
roan_embrechts : yes, good
stefaan_vanbillemont : and the way communication should be held
patrick_cool : give your opinion: in Agenda tool: should it be sorted ascending or descending
rene_haentjens : while there's still some of you there, please don't forget to inform me of your availability for the 2nd document subgroup meeting (see my recent e-mail). thanks
patrick_cool : by default: 30->1 sorting or 1->30
roan_embrechts : the current Dokeos structure is top heavy: much code in the tools, not much in the libraries
stefaan_vanbillemont : roan, I also mean the organisational structure
stefaan_vanbillemont : the developpers team
roan_embrechts : ah yes, very good, stefaan, what do you propose or want to know?
stefaan_vanbillemont : a lead developper?
patrick_cool : may we conclude that this chat is not really a success?
stefaan_vanbillemont : let it be a lesson
roan_embrechts : I think that it's OK for a first chat
stefaan_vanbillemont : for the future
stefaan_vanbillemont : we can't discuss a roadmap while chatting
roan_embrechts : we need an open channel like this much more often, then it's better
roan_embrechts : and indeed it's not perfect at all
stefaan_vanbillemont : maybe .. if we keep some basic communcation rules in mind
roan_embrechts : chat is OK because agreeing on things is only one thing
patrick_cool : the best communication is imho email + forum
roan_embrechts : being open for the whole world alone is important
patrick_cool : all the rest is too time consuming
stefaan_vanbillemont : indeed patrick
roan_embrechts : then Dokeos will never be a good international development
roan_embrechts : because the Belgians can get together but the reso of the world can't
patrick_cool : kijk naar de situatie hier.... we zijn hier nog met drie
stefaan_vanbillemont : sorry guys
stefaan_vanbillemont : have to leave .. the buildings closing here
stefaan_vanbillemont : next time!
patrick_cool : ok, CU
roan_embrechts : klopy, en dan? T is niet omdat je een keer iets doet dat er ineens 100 ontwikkelaars zijn
roan_embrechts : duurt een tijdje om dingen op te bouwen, geduld...
denis_parra : please
jan_bols : is there anybody, not speaking dutch hear?
patrick_cool : I consider this chat as closed?
patrick_cool : Who is still online?
roan_embrechts : Ok, closing...
jan_bols : me , me , me
patrick_cool : :-)
roan_embrechts : Denis_parra: sorry about the dutch
denis_parra : ok
eremy : Still here, but I'm just a humble end user
roan_embrechts : well, you're already helping out with some things
denis_parra : I'm a dummy here, too
patrick_cool : I think we are wrong to consider Dokeos as an international product. apart from a few users outside Belgium there is not really a international community .... Be realistic about this
roan_embrechts : denis, eremy: doesn't matter - your opinion is appreciated
eremy : You could be more international
eremy : I'm willing to help with visibility in the US
roan_embrechts : Patrick that is a self-fulfilling prophecy
patrick_cool : no, not at all... this is called realism !!!!
eremy : You're going to have major competion from Sakai here
roan_embrechts : Dokeos will grow, e.g. eremy uses it in the US as he says and gives talks about it, spreading it further...
denis_parra : pcool: I wouldn�t be sure of that, in latin america, at least, it is very used
roan_embrechts : Don't expect the world to switch overnight
jan_bols : concerning chat: i still think it can be a good tool, but it should be used in another way
patrick_cool : how much institutions is much?
jan_bols : not sure what that other way is.
roan_embrechts : we did talk too much about many topics at once
denis_parra : I always receive questions from colombia, argentina, mexico, peru, not a big market but something to consider
eremy : MIght I make a suggestion aboutchat structure?
jan_bols : perhaps we need to restrict chat sessions to 1 topic only
patrick_cool : Dokeos is seriously lagging behind on the point of marketing (and I do not like the word but it is a neccesary evil !!)
roan_embrechts : I agree on the marketing
eremy : Have a "core developers only" meeting about deep API structure
roan_embrechts : eremy: good suggestion
eremy : And another chat for folks like me where we discuss tool features and layout
patrick_cool : yes, but having a good meeting is very hard... theres always too much off-topic chitchat
patrick_cool : lots of ideas but few are really investigated
eremy : I know these are intertwined to some extent, but still
jan_bols : ptarick, that's why it's vital to have a moderator
roan_embrechts : ofcourse, that's why a moderator should keep the focus, bu thomas was too new as moderator perhaps
patrick_cool : everyone is proposing and requesting but no-one takes the action...
roan_embrechts : and chat does indeed show it's limit, for "deep API discussion" forum + live is better
patrick_cool : we should have dictator-controlled meetings ;-)
eremy : I'm happy to take on work on small tools, but I'm noit good enough to be a core guy
roan_embrechts : I will mail the rest for organising an API meeting
roan_embrechts : eremy: OK, sign here please, in blood :)
jan_bols : patrick, it's probably a joke, but you're right. in meetings you need some degree of dictatorship
patrick_cool : dictatorship and a good agenda !!!
eremy : Is there an Internet Blood Transport Protocol yet?
roan_embrechts : yes; indeed. Theres nothing wrong with leadership as long as the leader can be criticized and you can choose another one
patrick_cool : and this is what I mean with general chit-chat
patrick_cool : :-) a perfect illustration
roan_embrechts : nothing wrong with chitchat, as the meeting is more or less closed anyway
eremy : Another suggestion" color codeing in the chat
eremy : Have people put jokes and chitchat in blue
eremy : Real ideas in black
eremy : Arguments in red?
roan_embrechts : Ok, so we will find a better chat tool that allows this
patrick_cool : here it is indeed the case, but on other meetings it starts with chitchat and it keeps coming back and back again... and then some philosophical considerations (not to say BS) and again some chitchat
roan_embrechts : MSN? (blue)
patrick_cool : that's why I do not appriciate most of the meetings.... too much off-topic...
roan_embrechts : Yes patrick, you can be the first moderator then. You just volenteered yourself.
roan_embrechts : We can switch for every meeting
roan_embrechts : But software is about more than the programming
roan_embrechts : But I have to go.
patrick_cool : a joke now and then is OK and can be good, but that is not the main reason for a meeting
patrick_cool : software is more than programming alone but the main reason is programming....
patrick_cool : OK, everyone is going away apperently (they have to catch a bus, train, ...) So I guess I'm leaving also...
patrick_cool : CU all
eremy : Take care all- I'm off to vacation...
rene_haentjens : enjoy it, eremy!
denis_parra : bye
rene_haentjens : Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
rene_haentjens : bye